How easy to turbo convert a 300gd 1983????
Hi guys,
Recently got hold of a 300gd 1983 G wagon and I'd be interested in turbo charging her.....does anyone have any tips or hints or technical info to give me a heads up before I go at it? Anyone doe this to their G?
Before anyone Screws their face up I am a very competent mechanic and engineer, I worked for a while at a tuning garage, building some monster engines....so with the help of my local diesel specialist I think I can sort this out.
I have a spare T3 turbo and external wastegate (both new) hanging about I could use if the T3 works out to be a good size for 3l diesel (I'll have to get my technical books back out to calculate this)....oh and an intercooler etc....got it all to hand so it'd be nice to have the extra power.
As far as I can tell just from purely looking it's not got a throtlle body, purely mechanical fuel setup and the 5 cyl engine just sucks whatever it can combust...controlled by the diesel pump. So (correct me if I'm wrong) at first glance It looks an easy job to convert her to turbo....fabricate the necessary manifold, pipework and intercooler.....plumb it in to the inlet and adjust the fuel pump to match the boost.....
Anyone got anything to add??? I'm just thinking out loud on this subject...Had my head under the lid today and think it looks good for a charge ;)
Peace, BN
Hi
I have nothing technically to add from my limited knowledge of turbocharging and you seem to be well up on whats needed.
My only concern and you will get mixed feelings about this on the forum, is if the basic engine is up to it.
Although MB offered a Turbo charged version of the OM617 5 pot (never in this country and not i believe in the G)
The engine internal i.e pistons etc were of a different spec and suitable for higher temperatures generated through turbocharging.
I have personally seen at least 6 and maybe more of these with retro fitted turbo systems, fitted from known suppliers and home grown versions that have gone into meltdown.......and i mean meltdown not just a sticky piston i mean a mass of metal that you cant tell what is the piston if you can get the head off!!! this is not with standing the ones that have just seized from over heating.
If you do, dont ask for or expect too much from the engine either, the difference although noticeable is not significant and the more cooling the better.
Bah humbug!
Cheers
Gav
Hi BN, one of my G's has an aftermarket turbo fitted, and I quite like it. In standard form the old 5 cyl OM617's are hard work, but turbo'd they are so much better to drive. Mine has an STT kit fitted, which appears to be very simple. The turbo itself isn't huge, small front mounted intercooler, and the pump opened up, oh and a bigger bore exhaust. I'm sure anyone with a bit of skill could fashion up something similar and get similar results. I don't know any figures, but I don't think the boost is very high, which will help retain reliability. I reckon mine was done when new, or almost, and its an '88, it doesn't fly, but it reduces the number of down-changes on the average journey! My only concern is that you are about to do this to a nearly 30 year old engine. I actually made the choice to keep this one and sell my 463 as I prefer it to drive, although the fact that it's a lwb and the 463 was a swb had a bit to do with that, but not completeley. Good luck with your project, Mick.
Hello Badnews,
You seem to have the fundamental components for turbocharging. I have, had no experience of doing such project,s but my feeling in terms of a simply bolt on power booster is the acadamics of evaluating the engine. Whether, the engine can stand turbo charging as is. You have mentioned that you have done work in performance engines, not exactly your words but you may have a better idea than I can offer on this topic.
Not knowing the mileage on your vehicle and given the oil pressure is good, implies that the bearings have little wear, so should be able to stand turbo charging in theory. The after market STT Turbo system relied on a low boost pressure, I think, between 7 - 9 psi. That, in its self is fine, if the result you want is slight boost. I have driven an engine with STT turbocharging, whilst this improoves some performance somewhat, it only seems to satisfy the slowling down of the vehicle building up to a gradient.
The accleration is not particularly impressive, but again, one cannnot argue, that there is not slight improvement. Intercooling is paramount in my opinion, this serves to reduce the thermal load whilst under prolonged boost conditions.
I think the STT turbo system did use a thicker head gasket in order to reduce the compression ratio a little. In general, when comparing the engine from a saloon model and those fitted into the G-Wagen; the G-Wagen engines usually have a slighly reduced compression ratio, in order carter for Off-roading perforamance. Given the cost of modification verses the performance gain, my opinion is it did not seemed to be worth the investment.
I can not tell what sort of improovement you could gain for your self, my doubt is still of the evaluation of your engine condition and its suitabity for boosting.
I wonder if you would be better off, fitting a OM617a engine (subject to confirmation) from a donor vehicle, this is already turbocharged.
More quetions than answers.
Cheers,
People rave about the 617a. I’ve driven one (a low mileage very well cared for example) and I was completely unimpressed.
Not refined in any sense of the word.
Still sluggish.
But worst of all the driving characteristics were rubbish. Nothing low down, some boost from 2.5k rpm ish and then before you could blink it was all over. It just couldn’t breathe properly and higher up the rev range NVH was from the stone age.
IMHO I wouldn’t bother but as I say people rave about them, all depends where your standards/priorities are.
Turbo’ed 617’s don’t have a good reputation for longevity (they are different to 617a’s) but I have no personal knowledge on that.
Russ
Hi
Correct!! the 617 retrofit turbo lacked the internal engineering and injector pump required to get the same boost that you get from the 617A BUT !! what you suck in you must be able to blow out ..the 617A engine does not perform to capability unless you replace the entire exhaust system with the same bore pipe work as the outlet at the turbo body and then it needs be kept short baffled and with a smaller diameter outflow pipe in order to give you some back pressure that will allow you set the wastegate to give you the optimum boost...no good putting a great blaring exhaust in the system dumping all the energy to atmosphere. the 617A will never match a modern turbocharged engine because the stroke is too long and the construction too heavy but it will give you much better performance than the standard 617 with a Peugeot 405 turbo or similar fitted not for maximum performance but to protect the pistons and the bottom end
I won't enter into the the pros and cons of the OM617/OM617a engine, I can only suppose that, this engine has been some peoples' choice as alternatives. The OM617 preferred by those who wanted to convert from Petrol to Diesel and the OM617a by those who wanted to have more performance due to the turbocharger. These engine, by supposition were convenient and affordable from the donor sources.
On this line, then there are alternative engines, OM605 from E300TD or OM603. These are turbocharged engines. I do not know of their characteristics only that on the OM605 it has rough idling and is not quite a refined engine.
I have seen examples of Japanese turbos fitted to a W460 chassis and the performance from that convertion was indeed impressive. If you want to go that way.
Cheers,
Hi badnews,
Your topic always opens up a can of worms.............and it won't be the last time this one will be opened either.
As you've realised, performance IS a major problem in the 5-pot 460s if you're used to something more spritely, altough they are supremely reliable. For what its worth, as it is clear that you can more than swing a hammer, my opinion is if you're going to start down the route of modifications, you might as well save yourself dissappointment at the end of it by driving something you like. Ditch the old motor, buy a wrecked 210 E300TD (the one with the straight 6, built up to 1999, officially known as the 606.962) and swap the motor/gearbox set up........you will not be dissapointed! Its a super smooth engine, has a proper torque rating (330Nm@1600rpm), is very reliable AND sounds great. Your biggest problem will be the electrics as the engine/gearbox are ECUd and possibly the transfer box as this is quite a powerful engine (in the original G-form, the G300TD is quicker than the 3l/straight 6 petrol engined one). A few forum members have done this swap and could help you out.
Good luck,
Ph
Hi BN
There are plenty of other gearboxes you can fit, and there are plenty of engines you can fit to the gearboxes, depends what you want. ratios are no problem. What are you thinking about shedding weight on?
Hi Stig, looking for the 606.962 conversion, I just dont want to loose the low range..... I'll have to nosey about under the wagon, I might be being daft and find that the low ranges and drive selects (rear gearstick) are nothing to do with the gearbox and connect to the transfer box....I'm just thinking out loud.
On a side note what kind of money does a good condition std Gd300 '83 126,000 mile engine go for?? If I can somehow keep the low ranges the 606.962 seems to be the most suitable option I've heard so far, I like the power figures and if there's knowledge fo the conversion already on the forum then thats a huge bonus.... Seems the sensible way to go.
Really wanting this as my daily driver now, so when the weather picks up it's all hands on deck! Hoping to have it finished over the summer.
Peace, BN
For weight saving......
Glass is going to be ousted for Pollycarbonate
Hole saw and swager attack on any unnecessary paneling (I.e behind doorcards etc...)
& Generally going round replacing steel plates for ally where suitable.....done this on all my previous projects and if you keep the stuff you remove and weigh it all at the end you'd be flabergasted!!!!
Peace, BN
EDIT: Was nagging me about the low range so I went to have a look under the G, seems it can all be kept (re-reading I think stig confirmed this and I misunderstood), also noticed the underside of the wagon is remarkably immaculate, one tiny patch of rust on the drivers side front sill, Very easy repair.....must say I am very happy with that, thought I'd find loads of nasties!!! Phew
Hi BN,
You'll not have to get rid of the transfer box. You will want to check if the transfer box can take the power/torque of the 606 engine. I'm not sure on this point, but some other forums members will know. (Hus: what did you use for yours?) Also, from what I understand, in RHD form the 606 turbo might get in the way of the steering box/column: again some one on this forum will know how to get around this issue. Anyone?
The biggest differences that I can see looking into the engine bay is that the G-wagen engine has heatshields over the turbo as the aircleaner box sits on top of it (and I believe the oil pan is also difference to fit over the axle. If I can get back home in time for some daylight to remain, I'll try to take a pic of the under-bonnet view of the G and E class 606 engine set ups. As mentioned before, just bare in mind that my G is LHD (the E class is RHD).
Ph
The 617 is now outclassed and not worth the effort of adding a turbo ,had Stt and TB kits in the 80's and never got 10.000 miles before piston failure .I hope to post a report on Micheal Axel-Burgs 606.962 conversion with pics which shows it is straight forward . If you are intimidated by this then the Musso 5 TD is easy and cheap.
Hi
The 617A Mercedes factory built turbo diesel is the easiest engine to fit I have one in a 1985 460 SWB working G' ( on the farm) does everything >>...cattle movements>>. feed collection tractor shows but the "strap on " turbo conversions only work with reduced boost so not very effective 617a engines still available ( in the states ) s/hand for around GBP 1800 ( by the time you get it home ) PM me for details
hi ph . the 5 speed manual on my cabrio is from a w124 250D.it apparently has the highest torque rating in the w124 range. i am happy with it since fitting it 3 years ago... nad i have used it in all conditions..!!
i am now however thanks to mike [axel] looking into fitting a 6 speed 270 cdi box . OMG !!
hi badnews , heres some good news !
join this lot of turbodiesel wizzards , it all there. everything and anything you want to know about all mercedes diesel turbo related topics.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/index.php
rgds hus
Hus,
That is a good find! Makes one really want to up the ante! Thanks/Ph
p.s. sorry about pics, just read this thread again. Will try to take them this w/e
Hi hu55 is your cabrio a 460 or? how hard was the box to fit? I'm thinking of the Musso TD & w124 for transmission swap into my 280ge auto.
Thanks Matt
Hi hu55 is your cabrio a 460 or? how hard was the box to fit? I'm thinking of the Musso TD & w124 for transmission swap into my 280ge auto.
Thanks Matt
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Seems to be the general concensus that tubochargnig the current engine isnt really an option....for all the agrovation it'll still be pretty slow....so whats the point!
Are there any available conversions that mate to the existing G wagon gearbox? I like the low ranges etc... and if I understand rightly they'd be lost with a engine/box swap.
I'm thinking more power and put the old girl on a diet, some stupidlt heavy items that could benefit from some weight reduction IMO.
Cheers for all the advice guys, much appreciated :D
Peace, BN