463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

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fcp
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 Working on the conversion of my '86 300D to a OM606 and have got to make a decision on sump.

I could probably just get away with clearance using the saloon sump since I've got a 2" lift. 

I'm trying to do the conversion using stock parts wherever possible (mounts etc) though, so that probably means replacing the sump whith the 'correct' version fitted to the 463 300TD There would definitely be no clearance problem then.

The problem is that the EPC shows 3 different sumps and I'm not sure which one is the right one:

http://www.neoriginal.ru/cat/mb/part__2_1_19T_606_964_/01_050_463_1_964_...

Anyone had any experience? Only one par number is provided, but then why the 3 differen versions shown?

Pistonhead
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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

Hello fcp,

Trying to apply some logic here, the EPC frame you have shown is off G-Wagen anyway.  The fact, they list only one sump number, illustration 11 would suggest that is the sump available for the G-Wagen.

I could be wrong in my thoughts.

Sorry, tried to be of help.

Cheers,

fcp
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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

 Hi Rakesh,

Sorry for what ? that's good, logical thinking 

It occured to me that maybe there was some accepted convention as to why a part might be shown in the EPC drwaing that wasn't referenced, but as you say tha is the only one that is listed with a 'number. 

If I find out more I'll post it here.

Pistonhead
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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

An after thought, if you can establish the difference between heights of the bump stop travel on the suspension and the height between the axle and current sump, should the bump stop height be less than the sump height difference, then you can establish if you have a safe clearance or not.

Just a suggestion, 

LEEU
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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

 Be safe and cut the sump horizontally and swing around 180', reweld, and you know you won't have a problem.

mjkirk
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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

I'm currently back on my 606a conversion as and when I get a minute, and I've spent ages making sure the sump clearance is right. I've had to modify the left engine mount by: Removing 10mm approx from bottom of alluminium arm to lower the engine and increase clearance from brake servo. Remove inner half of metal support for rubber engine mount, bolt inner support tube to outer half only. Space alluminium arm out from engine block 6mm, slot right hand mount holes in chassis bracket 6mm outwards to compensate. Grind front inner corner off  left chassis bracket flush with rubber mount. This gives approx 10mm clearance between the sump and the left engine mount, and the closest point on the right side is the alternator/steering box at approx 6mm. I have jacked the front of the G down from a beam in the workshop roof, compressing the front springs and bump stops to the point where the front tyres looked nearly flat, and I could get my hand between the front axle and the closest part of the sump. It's all a bit close, but the engine doesn't move left or right far when you shake it by hand quite violently. On the final fitting I may tweek it here or there a bit. This is using 463 300GD mounting arms on the existing 460 300GD rubber mounts, and a '97 E300 TD engine with standard sump. I'll stand corrected if it does touch, but for the moment I'm happy to fit it in my own vehicle.

axel
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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

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gav.helme
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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

Hi all

Sorry if this is too late in response.

The EPC shows the 3 different types of sump configuration because those pictures cover every chassis type that the OM 606 6 cylinder 24 valve engine is fitted to. It also being supplied in both the Normally Aspirated and Turbo Charged variants.

The G Wagen specific sump is part number A603 014 25 02 which fits the W463 300GDT / G300DT versions from circa 1995-1999.

The OM606 was produced in NA form with engine prefix…

606.910 In the W124 E300Diesel series cars - sump no A606 010 03 13 item 5 on EPC
606.912 In the W210 E300Diesel series cars – sump no A606 010 04 13 item 5 on EPC

And also produced in Turbo form with engine prefix…

606.961 In the W140 S300TurboDiesel series cars – sump no A603 014 17 02 item 8 on EPC
606.962 In the W210 E300TurboDiesel series cars – sump no A606 010 05 13 item 5 on EPC
606.964 In the W463 G300TurboDiesel series G Wagen’s – sump no A603 014 25 02 item 11 on EPC

One additional point is the same sump part number A603 014 25 02 was also fitted to the earlier W463 350GDT / G350DT with the OM603.972 Turbo engine fitted and built from circa 1991-1995 and these may be an easier source due to their age and tendency to fail.

There are some earlier superseded part numbers listed on the OM603 EPC and they are              
A603 014 21 02 and A603 014 22 02. They do not show on the OM606 EPC but must be interchangeable if you can find one.

Interestingly the picture on the OM603 bears no resemblance to the OM606 one anyway as the picture is always for reference only!
The sump part number A603 014 25 02 is currently £703.00 + vat at MBUK although availability is from MB Germany who have 4 in stock.

The gasket part number A606 014 00 22 is obviously the same for all and is £14.80 + vat at MBUK and they have 13 in stock.

Hope this helps

axel
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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

 do not forget you have to get the g specific oil pump to go with the g sump and its 400 pounds ish as you can't just change the pickup tube , i keep an eye on german ebay for failed 'rod bender' 350 engines (603) but they just don't come up .
the prices of the diesel engines on ebay.de is something else by the way, om606a engine highish mileage, 2000 euros!! 
 

fcp
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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

That's good infomation so thanks very much.   I wasn't aware of the issue re. Oil pump either - do you know of a part number for that Axel? 

Just a random thought - Searching around, I came across someone selling ex military BV206s one variant of which used the OM603.

This company has a whole bunch of sumps as spares, which carry the Mercedes part  A6030141402 - very close to the A6030142502

Looking at the pictures, they lok almost identical too (see attached). No idea what the cost will be (I have emailed them for a quote) and I can't find the part # on any of the russian sites to see what the EPC says about it.. what do you reckon? could be a possibility?

axel
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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

 i have just checked with a friend who has just bought the correct sump (he lives in holland) the pump you need is part nr.a606 191 11 01 
the sump you have seen is a sort of half way house between the car sump and a g  spec one the big cutaway to clear the engine mount on the inlet side of the engine is not there and the tank is too long, if they were really cheap ie.50 gbp they are worth it but you will have to do quite a bit of chopping and welding and they are buggers for distorting when you weld them .
the correct g sump and pump is the way to go but my god you have to pay, and they just do not come up 2nd hand as i keep hunting on german e bay and if they ever do the sellers are savvvy and will price it hard .
standard e class 606 sumps(2nd hand) are cheap so if you have a disaster with a cut about and weld up you can do it on a cheapy!  
my sump works well, but i also cut and lowered my mount cups so the motor looks less 'head up' the engines look really odd being so high at the front which is why if you just use a car sump the engine is inclined like it is climbing a hill when level so when you do go up a gradient the angle is pronounced on a modest hill and when you change the oil you will not get all the oil out without jacking the car up at the back to level the sump floor as alot of oil gets trapped at the back of the sump , basicallly as i stated before you could starve the motor of oil if you really test your g on gradients or at best be feeding the bearings frothy oil full of bubbles.
long term this is not good for your motor .

axel
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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

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fcp
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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

 Ah, OK. 

I've decided to go with the correct OEM sump, mounts and pump in any case.

I'm a bit obsessive about doing things well and if I'm ging to spend the money flowing and rebuilding the top end of the engine, having Myna do the pump and comissionng a custom manifold and bigger turbo, then £1K on the sump to guarantee its the right one for the job is worth it I think. I'll have to get saving!

Out of interest, what did you do about cooling on your conversion? did you keep stock rad etc?

axel
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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

 the rad was a std 280ge recored with an extra row ie.high flow make sure your visco fan is good, the g should be mega quick with all that myna magic as my one is a flying m/c with waht it has ! should chew some diesel though

fcp
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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

 haha... yes they guys at Myna reckon we'll get 350-400HP with a Holset HX35. I quite fancy an Eaton M90 bolted on too but one step at a time...  I'm going with a Sprinter gearbox which should hold the torque, just not sure about the rest of the drivetrain. Should be fun  though.

gav.helme
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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

The sump you have seen was A603 014 14 02 and are £573.00 + vat Germany have 16 in stock.

They do not appear on EPC on any European version of the OM603 or OM606. I can only assume they are a special build for the Hagglund BV206 models.

The oil pump listed for the G Wagen with the OM606.964 is part number A606 180 13 01 and are £318.00 + vat Germany have 8 in stock.

Not sure where Axel’s friend in Holland got the number A606 191 11 01 from but it does not exist on either EPC or MB Germany price files. The closest I can find is A606 180 11 01 which is listed for the OM606.961 engine from the W140 S300TD?

axel
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axel
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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

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gav.helme
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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

Hi Axel

That probably makes sense now then...

The casting number on the parts is just that, and each part will have its own casting number which refers to the technical drawing

used to manufacture the part.

The part number is different and usually is so because it is a combination of two or more castings / parts.

Only the number from the MB box that the part came in or the dealers invoice will be identifiable.

Very confusing really, MB should use a different numbering system for the castings so they dont look like part numbers!

Only when the casting is a single piece with no extra parts added do they use it as the part number as well.

Hope this makes sense

axel
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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

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gav.helme
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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

Hi

The Oil Pump part number A606 180 13 01 should come complete with the pick up A603 181 12 20.

There should be no need to order the pick up seperatly as well.

The pick up will not fit the other 606 engine oil pumps, like you say ...a shame.

axel
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gav.helme
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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

Hi

Extra items that Axel has described for the OM606.964 G300TD engine are as follows….

Item No 155 A603 010 10 61 is the OIL BAFFLE £108.00 + vat Germany have in stock

Item No 185 A104 186 00 95 is the SUPPORT £1.85 + vat Germany have in stock

Item No 176 N914005 006020 (No Size Listed) is the BOLTS X13 Not Listed at MB

I have used the part number from the OM603.972 engine G350TD (see below) for the bolts as they listed as a good number and the Baffle and Support showed the same part numbers. The OM606.964 picture shows a bolt with a built in washer, the OM603.972 shows a bolt and a spring washer instead? On the OM606 no length is listed for the bolt but the OM603 lists M6X16 which may be too short so I have listed another option, you would need to clarify but only a small issue.

Item No XXX N304017 006016 (M6x16) is the BOLTS X13 £1.15 + vat each UK have in stock

Item No XXX N304017 006020 (M6x20) is the BOLTS X13 £1.15 + vat each UK have in stock

Item No XXX N000137 006204 is the SPRING WASHER X13 £0.40 + vat each UK have in stock

All the OM606 engines list the same part number for the main bearing cap bolts for the standard 6 main bearing caps (A603 011 05 71), these are the same on all the OM603 engines as well.

One of two things applies here.

Either 1) The part number which lists with the infamous MB Footnote 409, which states the part is to be “adapted during assembly” (read “if it don’t fit, make it!”)So you have to drill and tap the holes for the baffle bolts yourself if required,

Or 2) All the bolts come with the threads in already and you use them if you need to, which seems more plausible.

Hope this helps

axel
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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

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gav.helme
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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

Hi
You are all keeping me on my toes!!!!

Item 146 A603 010 26 72 Dipstick £
Item 92 A603 018 07 16 Dipstick Tube £

I have had a look through the EPC and the only other engine items that I can find that may be different are two blanking plugs at the back of the oil sump. There are other obvious items like Air Cleaner and piping, Engine Oil Cooler Piping, Viscous Fan and Blades, Engine Mount Supports etc. but I am sure you will be aware of those and probably find local fixes for them.

Item 74 A602 014 01 33 Cover Plate £

Item 77 A601 010 01 67 Cover Plate £

Item 80 A008 997 59 48 Seal Ring £

The first one is a metal plate cover for the inspection hole and replaces a plastic cover on the other versions, the second is a plug that goes in the hole for the RPM Sensor used on the OM606.910 version and is a plastic plug on all the other versions. I guess these need to be more substantial and less prone to ingress on the G Wagen engine.

Unfortunately the MB Factory Link is off this weekend for maintenance so I will update the price and availability when I can.

Thanks

kashi123
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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

 Right a question for you technical guys!

I am putting a OM606 into my G.
I have the G-sump, oilpump etc. Also bought the correct dipstick and guidetube.
This got me thinking: the G-dipstick is LONGER than the original one.
The g sump takes 0.5 liter more than the car sump.
But, if I use the original dipstick, won't the oil level when filled to max on this dipstick be correct. In other words the oil level will still be the same under the crank shaft?
The guide tube is the same lenght on  the outside of the engine of both tubes.

So in other words if I use the G dipstick it will require a LOWER oil level to read full

Mightily confused now: should I stick with the original dipstick and just fill till it reads full or is there as reason to use the G specific one as that will read full at a lower level, being about 1.5 cm longer.

Does this make sense? any opinions?

Also the old guidetube is being a PIA the remove so if I don't have to I won't!

Oh and does anyone know how much oil the G-sump SHOULD take with a 'dry' engine. THis will give me a mark to go on. So oilfilter and cooler empty as been stood for a while.

Thanks in advance!!

Cheers

Richard

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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

 Hello Richard,

You have raised a more questions.  The OM 606 engine you are fitting, what is it out of?  The G-sump you have, of which engine is that from?   In the G-Wagen an OM 606 engine is used in the G300TD which has a OM 606.964 engine code.  According to this engine it has a sump of part number: A 603 014 25 02.  Dip stick part number: A 603 010 26 72 and it tube's part number is: A 603 018 07 16.

I have located an OM 606 engine used in saloons from an E300TD (W124 model) using OM 606.962 engine code.  Its sump is different, part number: A 606 010 05 13, Dip stick part number: A 606 010 14 72 and tube part number: A 601 018 00 16; as you can compare these part numbers are obviously different.  This means the parts are different.  

My suggestion is to pour the correct amount of oil as the dealer mentions, using which ever dip stick you want to, fit the dip stick into the tube and mark out where ever the oil registers for you.  Ask your dealer what the volume of oil is at minimum.  If they have a figure for you at minimum then firstly pour that amount of oil in the sump and dip your stick and mark, before adding your full amount.

Cheers,

kashi123
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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

 Thanks Rakesh,

the engine is from a W210 saloon but has the G sump off the 606.964 on it.

I have done as you (and Mike) suggested and it worked perfectly. filled up with the correct amount and marked the level on the orinal dipstick. all good and I have good oilpressure when running.

Thanks again

Richard

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Re: 463 300 Turbodiesel OM606 Sump

 I have a 91 463 300GD N/A. I will be swapping in a nice 87 603A. I was wondering if you could enlighten me as to whether the 603N/As sump would work with the existing 603As oil pump. I am pretty sure it will bolt right up to the turbo motor. And being made for the 463 it already has the notch in it to clear the engine mounts.

If it works the 463 603N/A would be an additional source for others wanting to do the swap. BTW my sumps number is: A 603 01 014 13

Mark