Gearbox oil
Hi guys
It has been a while, and for those who doesn't know, I have managed to kill another 606. The new engine is on the way, and this time I will limit it to 200bhp.
While waiting for the new engine, I have to rebuild my gearbox. All new syncro's, new 2nd and new bearings. 400+ bhp and 35" wheels do not play with a 300GD gearbox. My question is what oil to put in it. It is a 1991 5 speed manual 300GDS.
Also, my central diff lock let me down a week before the engine popped. It just doesn't engage.
Thanks
Hi Christo,
Redline is great stuff. I've used it in loads of vehicles and it always improves the shift quality. I see you still haven't figured the accelerator pedal isn’t actually just an on off switch
there is something between 0 and 100%
Hey Leeu, hows it going.. long time :)
So what what's up? - where are the 606's failing? 400HP, 35" tyres are in the range of the engine I'm building to race so I'd be interested to know some detail if you don't mind sharing.
Have you thought about binning the MB gearbox and going with the GS5/6 series from BMW?
Also TC case failure - this was VG080 ?
Hi
Could this be an issue with 463 gearbox problems/?
What other 5 speed boxes fit straight on a g wagon that are strong and no change of input shaft etc
I thought the old mechanical linkage boxes were the strongest and the best
^6 speed boxes have a lower overall ratio do they not or have i miss read the info
So a 5 speed mechanical has a higher top gear ratio than a 6 speed box. Without checking the info i was lead to believe a 5 speed box is stronger and holds a higher top gear speed
Please correct me if i am wrong
Can't remember reading that 463 Gearbox weak? Surely feeding 400bhp through any manual gearbox and heavy right foot , something will go bang?
Bad news about the VG150... I'd be interested to know what it was that has failed. I'm actually about to have mine apart to service and renew all the seals etc.
I've also been thinking a lot about cooling in general recently too.
It will be interesting to understand what failed on the 606 though.
Pistons failure in high power 606s has been an occasional problem for people (I think both BSR and Leemu have melted pistons running super high boost/ fuel HP)
I've just finished soda-blast cleaning the pistons tonight and have been thinking about getting Camcoat to ceramic coat them (skirts need re-doing with moly anyway and its only about £15 to have them coated at the same time). Reports vary, but the general sense from all I read seem to be that it works and for a couple of hundred quid seems a good thing to do, though if the heat is not being transferred out across the piston crowns, its going into to turbo so boost will have to run higher than normal I guess.
Water/air chargecooling the inlet is also on the plan. I know a few people are using water/ methanol injection on the inlet plenum too, but not very practical for desert racing.. I think as you say, ultimately just more surface area of cooling oil is probably the answer, I'm going to have to think about how/ where this can be accommodated.
I wonder about transmission and TC cooling too. I noticed recently that the previous version of the BMW GS6 ZF gearbox I'm using had a mechanical oil coolant pump fitted which was dropped on the later version for some reason.
From a practical perspective, I suppose you could drill/ tap the VG150 for an oil feed.
It will be interesting to see what killed Christo's 606
I am sure a bad driver will kill any gear box, presume thats why MB only offer Autos?
Its not the HP that is the problem, but the torque. HP is just a calculation that tells you how much work an engine is capable of sustaining at a given RPM. Torque tells you how quickly it can deliver it (and is what kills transmissions).
There are a few people running high torque engines on MB boxes, though also a lot of broken ones (717 series seems to be a problem). 716.641 is the E270CDi 6 speed I think?
AFAIK MB don't public max torque ratings for their transmissions, though 400Nm-500Nm seems to be about the limit for many.
More than that and there are other transmissions are available that will take the torque (BMW GS6 is rated 530 but will handle north of 800Nm); Tremec and Tex are also options (deep pockets required).
The bigger problem is that - where the G is concerned, the VG150 is only rated at 1500Nm and there aren't many other options (VG080 is just 800Nm). An engine making 500Nm can potentially easily exceed this in low gears (rinertia being the key other variable) so as you say, the right foot is key!
Hi Christo,
Redline is great stuff. I've used it in loads of vehicles and it always improves the shift quality. I see you still haven't figured the accelerator pedal isn’t actually just an on off switch there is something between 0 and 100%
Hello Stranger - long time no see. How are things?
Spider1V
Two 'Oldies' in one post? Nice to see you on here LEEU! Another broken G? what is that now, 5 or 6 G's? 
Spider1V
Hi Christo,
Redline is great stuff. I've used it in loads of vehicles and it always improves the shift quality. I see you still haven't figured the accelerator pedal isn’t actually just an on off switch there is something between 0 and 100%
Hello Stranger - long time no see. How are things?
Spider1V
Hi Joe, very good thanks, too much work too little play but still working on the escape tunnel
I seem to remember Christo tried but failed to break your G as well?
Christo, Russ, Ben and Axel all in the one thread.
The Forum is back :-)
Christo, Russ, Ben and Axel all in the one thread.
The Forum is back :-)
I'm generally lurking.
Technical, engineering and performance threads get excited but many members aren't that fired up by that side of things and so they are few and far between . I gave up posting on my engine prep thread here since no one seemed very interested, which is fine ( 
lol !)
A few notes on my 606 experience:
I fitted a 606 NA, Russ drove it, and it was a fine engine, with the most beautiful sound ever. After moving to South Africa the G became a toy, and as I am sure you know, toys need to be played with.
I sourced a Myna tuned pump from the US and fitted a Scania 143 turbo to it. I don’t know anything apart from what it came off. My oil feed came from the oil pressure unit, but the 4mm braided flexi hose couldn’t deliver, so the turbo went. Note – You need a shorter tap off point or thicker pipe! I fitted a 6mm pipe. This engine was then sold once repaired and is still pulling a G.
Next engine I had the pump modified and set boost with MB turbo at 1.4 bar. The 5.5mm elements couldn’t deliver enough fuel and exhaust temp went too high and melted the seats in the head. Note – If running a 5.5mm pump, keep your boost under 1/2bar. I couldn’t find a head, so I bought another engine.
Last engine had 7mm elements fitted and another Scania turbo at 1.5 bar. This engine was a dream come true, but then a stupid silly thing went wrong, and I still don’t know how, but the main crank pulley bolt came loose. This happened while I was overtaking a sting of cars up a long steep hill, so I had to keep going until it was safe to pull over. In this time I fried the head again.
My next engine I am going to use the Scania turbo again, but I have sourced a OM603, 350 IP. I will fit my 7mm elements, but with the manual boost, I should be able to get rid of the smoke. I intend to keep my boost to 1bar. This should give me about 200bhp, which is more than anyone needs in an off-roading G.
I find these techo threads the most interesting, I've tried a few, but like you say they die pretty early which is a shame. The 'club' is better for those sorts of chats, but would be nice to see more excitement about it here, as there's a lot going on in the UK and with a few of us. Any way, slightly off topic..
PS, Mike what's 'altitoy', or am I missing something really obvious?
bloody ell christo. you dont stop mate ! its a shame the last engine fried...as you had it sussed.
on you r newest install how will work the manual boost? did you do all this work yourself or is labour cheap in south africa ? what tires and gearbox are you using ?
my cabrio is running just over 1 bar. power isnt bad considering the size of the tires and the weight too. would like a bit more power..im thinking of sending my 603a ip to goran to get it overhauled . it was built by a bodge bosch ip guy several years ago..
keep us posted on the progress.
rgds hus
A few notes on my 606 experience:
I fitted a 606 NA, Russ drove it, and it was a fine engine, with the most beautiful sound ever. After moving to South Africa the G became a toy, and as I am sure you know, toys need to be played with.
I sourced a Myna tuned pump from the US and fitted a Scania 143 turbo to it. I don’t know anything apart from what it came off. My oil feed came from the oil pressure unit, but the 4mm braided flexi hose couldn’t deliver, so the turbo went. Note – You need a shorter tap off point or thicker pipe! I fitted a 6mm pipe. This engine was then sold once repaired and is still pulling a G.
No problems with pistons from the N/A then? wrist pin on N/A is smaller than A. Good info about hose size, I wonder if pump on N/A is different from A too though.
Next engine I had the pump modified and set boost with MB turbo at 1.4 bar. The 5.5mm elements couldn’t deliver enough fuel and exhaust temp went too high and melted the seats in the head. Note – If running a 5.5mm pump, keep your boost under 1/2bar. I couldn’t find a head, so I bought another engine.
Last engine had 7mm elements fitted and another Scania turbo at 1.5 bar. This engine was a dream come true, but then a stupid silly thing went wrong, and I still don’t know how, but the main crank pulley bolt came loose. This happened while I was overtaking a sting of cars up a long steep hill, so I had to keep going until it was safe to pull over. In this time I fried the head again.
This has happened to a couple of people over on STD. Here I think was one solution http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/Thread-Norwegian-OM606-build?page=2&highlight=Pulley
My next engine I am going to use the Scania turbo again, but I have sourced a OM603, 350 IP. I will fit my 7mm elements, but with the manual boost, I should be able to get rid of the smoke. I intend to keep my boost to 1bar. This should give me about 200bhp, which is more than anyone needs in an off-roading G.
With a 606A or N/A? I'm suprise that 7mm elements will only deliver 200HP with 1bar. Will you not see a lot of unburnt fuel and high EGTs?
ALTIT0Y Is the reg of Mike next 606A project an early SWB Wagon that's been chopped to Cabrio
ALT xxxY You can figure the rest...
"No problems with pistons from the N/A then? wrist pin on N/A is smaller than A. Good info about hose size, I wonder if pump on N/A is different from A too though."
I think the pumps are the same, 37mm impellers.
I believe one of the subtle differences is the lighter pistons allowing the 606NA to rev more freely. I'm only aiming for 150bhp'ish for my NA. I may fit a small turbo once I've used it for a while (I have one off a VAG 2.5TDi with mechanical waste gate ready) but simple/smooth/economical/reliable is my priority for it's intended use. I really liked Christo's 606NA.
Christo, Russ, Ben and Axel all in the one thread.
The Forum is back :-)
I'm generally lurking.
Technical, engineering and performance threads get excited but many members aren't that fired up by that side of things and so they are few and far between . I gave up posting on my engine prep thread here since no one seemed very interested, which is fine ( lol !)
I've been reading, but always wary of the flamethrowers,
Christo, Russ, Ben and Axel all in the one thread.
The Forum is back :-)
I'm generally lurking.
Technical, engineering and performance threads get excited but many members aren't that fired up by that side of things and so they are few and far between . I gave up posting on my engine prep thread here since no one seemed very interested, which is fine ( lol !)
I've been reading, but always wary of the flamethrowers,
Same
Christo, Russ, Ben and Axel all in the one thread.
The Forum is back :-)
I'm generally lurking.
Technical, engineering and performance threads get excited but many members aren't that fired up by that side of things and so they are few and far between . I gave up posting on my engine prep thread here since no one seemed very interested, which is fine ( lol !)
I've been reading, but always wary of the flamethrowers,
Same
Really? This site is pretty tame and polite by the standards of most
"No problems with pistons from the N/A then? wrist pin on N/A is smaller than A. Good info about hose size, I wonder if pump on N/A is different from A too though."
I think the pumps are the same, 37mm impellers.
That's interesting. I have a new 606.964 pump in the box, I'll compare it to the old 962 - I'm sure they are both the same too.
I believe one of the subtle differences is the lighter pistons allowing the 606NA to rev more freely. I'm only aiming for 150bhp'ish for my NA. I may fit a small turbo once I've used it for a while (I have one off a VAG 2.5TDi with mechanical waste gate ready) but simple/smooth/economical/reliable is my priority for it's intended use. I really liked Christo's 606NA.
You mean the pistons or the pistons/ rods? I wouldn't have thought it would make that much difference in most situations (when you consider the rest of the rotating mass e.g. flywheel). I don't know what the difference would be, but I'd guess a turbo rod is around 750g so maybe 600 for a N/A? maybe someone else knows?
I'm not even sure that the pistons are different between the 606NA and 606A (in fact thanks for reminding me.... Gav, if you have a mo, could you look me out availability on a single 606A piston and 6x piston pins/12 clips? thanks!).
The rods in the 606A N/A rods are considered a weak point in high power 606 applications (I think I'm right in saying that you can also run 606 turbo pistons and rods in a 603 too). I'm just waiting on a set of H-profile rods from Arrows to replace the standard 606A ones (full set with bearings are for sale if anyone needs a set, please PM).
For the sake of being inclusive and in case anyone wonders what the heck 'rods' are (all you leather and wood couch lovers, you know who you are - spider ) They are the bits of steel that connect the piston to the crankshaft. Left to right - custom 'H' profile billet rod (racing applications), standard OM606A (Turbo rod) and OM606 N/A (non turbo)
dont remind me mike.....! only just getting over it .christo thinks he is the only wild child here
rgds hus
yeah - clunky old diesels...
[
I believe one of the subtle differences is the lighter pistons allowing the 606NA to rev more freely. I'm only aiming for 150bhp'ish for my NA. I may fit a small turbo once I've used it for a while (I have one off a VAG 2.5TDi with mechanical waste gate ready) but simple/smooth/economical/reliable is my priority for it's intended use. I really liked Christo's 606NA.
[/quote]
You mean the pistons or the pistons/ rods? I wouldn't have thought it would make that much difference in most situations (when you consider the rest of the rotating mass e.g. flywheel). I don't know what the difference would be, but I'd guess a turbo rod is around 750g so maybe 600 for a N/A? maybe someone else knows?
I'm not even sure that the pistons are different between the 606NA and 606A (in fact thanks for reminding me.... Gav, if you have a mo, could you look me out availability on a single 606A piston and 6x piston pins/12 clips? thanks!).
The rods in the 606A N/A rods are considered a weak point in high power 606 applications (I think I'm right in saying that you can also run 606 turbo pistons and rods in a 603 too). I'm just waiting on a set of H-profile rods from Arrows to replace the standard 606A ones (full set with bearings are for sale if anyone needs a set, please PM).
[/quote]
I just picked up on your comment re. the smaller (lighter) gudgeon pins. So yes pistons/rods. tbh who cares, I like the way it goes.
[
I believe one of the subtle differences is the lighter pistons allowing the 606NA to rev more freely. I'm only aiming for 150bhp'ish for my NA. I may fit a small turbo once I've used it for a while (I have one off a VAG 2.5TDi with mechanical waste gate ready) but simple/smooth/economical/reliable is my priority for it's intended use. I really liked Christo's 606NA.
You mean the pistons or the pistons/ rods? I wouldn't have thought it would make that much difference in most situations (when you consider the rest of the rotating mass e.g. flywheel). I don't know what the difference would be, but I'd guess a turbo rod is around 750g so maybe 600 for a N/A? maybe someone else knows?
I'm not even sure that the pistons are different between the 606NA and 606A (in fact thanks for reminding me.... Gav, if you have a mo, could you look me out availability on a single 606A piston and 6x piston pins/12 clips? thanks!).
The rods in the 606A N/A rods are considered a weak point in high power 606 applications (I think I'm right in saying that you can also run 606 turbo pistons and rods in a 603 too). I'm just waiting on a set of H-profile rods from Arrows to replace the standard 606A ones (full set with bearings are for sale if anyone needs a set, please PM).
[/quote]
I just picked up on your comment re. the smaller (lighter) gudgeon pins. So yes pistons/rods. tbh who cares, I like the way it goes.
[/quote]
Which, when all said and done is what is important
I can't say if there is a difference between the 606 and the 606a, but I know their compression ratios are the same, and I know the 606 stood up to a lot of experimenting with turbo and IP. There are however a lot to do to turbo a 606, but it can be done, and it will last.
I still don't know what oil to put in my gearbox, and I am also looking for a CV please.
The 150 transfer box is a doddle to rebuild. I have just done mine . There are 2 bearings i had to source from mercedesthe rest were the same
Well 1 bearing was from merc as a high cap one was available elsewhere. They have a different cone shape. I rebuilt a friends off roader and asked him on the matter. He said just use the cheaper bearing that is not high cap. and 35 or so off road events and a few comp safaris and its still good as gold
1 bearing is merc only and you will see as there are no bearing codes just a merc part number
Just be sure when shimming up bearings, i was lucky and used the shims the box had been built with, too loose is vibration and wear and too tight is obvious damage
One is a pain as you have to pull out outer race to adjust. The other bearing stacks are easy
New seals and good to go
I used a normal synthetic 75 90 in transfer but morris oils which i rate highly mow do a mt oil specific to the merc transfer box
Morris oils have been around for years and i dont use their engine oils but their gearbox, diff etc is top notch blended from a new base, not recycled. Been rallying on it for years and had no issues and virtually no wear
Also its half the price of mobil or shell or castrol
I cant say about other brands but i have been to their sites over the years and with some you dont know what you might get in a container. It might say it on the tin but ive seen all i need to know
Please tell me what gearbox as in 6 speed has a higher rato than a 463 five speed for a straight swap, I am very keen on the swap if it has higher gearing
Straight swap as in it bolts to engine without mods
G
The 150 transfer box is a doddle to rebuild. I have just done mine . There are 2 bearings i had to source from mercedesthe rest were the same
Well 1 bearing was from merc as a high cap one was available elsewhere. They have a different cone shape. I rebuilt a friends off roader and asked him on the matter. He said just use the cheaper bearing that is not high cap. and 35 or so off road events and a few comp safaris and its still good as gold
1 bearing is merc only and you will see as there are no bearing codes just a merc part number
Just be sure when shimming up bearings, i was lucky and used the shims the box had been built with, too loose is vibration and wear and too tight is obvious damage
One is a pain as you have to pull out outer race to adjust. The other bearing stacks are easy
New seals and good to go
That's good to know, mine is on the bench and now that the MB flange puller has just arrived (thank you to the source for that!) I can get to it this weekend. Did you have the whole thing apart ?
I certainly have all of the seals to rebuild, can't remember which bearings I ordered though - you say there are only two that need to be done, or just two that need to be sourced from MB?
Ben you have email about Piston, Pins and Clips...
Some bedtime reading for you techno's, different Piston and Conrod combos for the 6 Pot OM60X Diesels...
PISTONS OM60X 6 Cylinder
606A PISTON A605 030 04 17 A605 030 02 17 87mm bore
210 Series 606.962 - 463 Series 606.964 3.0 Litre
606A PISTON A605 030 01 17 87mm bore
140 Series 606.961 3.0 Litre
606 PISTON A606 030 06 17 87mm bore
124 Series 606.910 - 210 Series 606.912 3.0 Litre
603A PISTON A602 030 00 17 A603 030 13 17 A603 030 10 17 A603 030 09 17 87mm bore
Hagglund BV206 603.950 - 124 Series 603.960 - 124 Series 603.963 4 Matic 3.0 Litre
603A PISTON A603 030 21 17 A603 030 19 17 A603 030 18 17 A603 030 16 17 89mm bore
140 Series 603.971 - 463 Series 603.972 3.5 Litre
603 PISTON A601 030 22 17 A601 030 21 17 A601 030 17 17 A601 030 16 17 A601 030 15 17 87mm bore
124 Series 603.912 - 124 Series 603.913 4 Matic - 463 Series 603.931 3.0 Litre
CONRODS OM60X 6 Cylinder
606A CONROD A605 030 05 20
140 Series 606.961 210 Series 606.962 - 463 Series 606.964 3.0 Litre
606 CONROD A604 030 13 20 A604 030 12 20 A604 030 10 20
124 Series 606.910 - 210 Series 606.912 3.0 Litre
603A CONROD A605 030 05 20 A603 030 31 20 A603 030 24 20 A603 030 21 20 A603 030 18 20
Cont… A603 030 16 20 A603 030 15 20 A603 030 10 20
Hagglund BV206 603.950 - 124 Series 603.960 - 124 Series 603.963 4 Matic 3.0 Litre
603A CONROD A603 030 29 20 A603 030 33 20 A603 030 32 20 A603 030 25 20 A603 030 22 20
140 Series 603.971 - 463 Series 603.972 3.5 Litre
603 CONROD A601 030 46 20 A601 030 43 20 A601 030 40 30 A601 030 36 20 A601 030 33 20
124 Series 603.912 - 124 Series 603.913 4 Matic - 463 Series 603.931 3.0 Litre
Note - Latest Part Number is show first, not all numbers in the chain are interchangeable on all engines!
Note - No Data on the USA only 126 Series 603.961 3.0 Litre and 126 Series 603.970 3.5 Litre
Hi
No special tools required just be sure to measure the depth correct and exact for the shims, hire or borrow a quality depth gauge. This can be done other ways but this is the most easy and accurate way
No i did all bearings, 1 is merc only and the other is hard to source apparently so it might be best to go to merc. I think 60 and 48 rings a bell for price
There are about 8 bearings i think and i replaced all while i was there, get a gearstick gasket too and some good polurethane sealer to seal box up again, silicone instant gasket is not good enough and you dont want it leaking and to do it again
They are well put together and straightforward and very hefty gears
You will need a good bearing puller too
" are a bit tricky to remove inner roller race but just take your time and think about it
Thats about it really give me a shout if you get stuck with a pic so i know which bit your on about
No worries
G
Hi
No special tools required just be sure to measure the depth correct and exact for the shims, hire or borrow a quality depth gauge. This can be done other ways but this is the most easy and accurate way
No i did all bearings, 1 is merc only and the other is hard to source apparently so it might be best to go to merc. I think 60 and 48 rings a bell for price
There are about 8 bearings i think and i replaced all while i was there, get a gearstick gasket too and some good polurethane sealer to seal box up again, silicone instant gasket is not good enough and you dont want it leaking and to do it again
They are well put together and straightforward and very hefty gears
You will need a good bearing puller too
" are a bit tricky to remove inner roller race but just take your time and think about it
Thats about it really give me a shout if you get stuck with a pic so i know which bit your on about
No worries
G
Cool, I have a Mitutoyo Digimatic guage and the MB puller so that will be fine.
Re. bearings, that's helpful to know too. I''l replace all of mine while I have it apart (Gav, I'll be in touch!). Looking at the workshop manual it looks like a couple of them are interference fit, did you use a bearing heater on them, or just 'persuade' ?
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